Wildstar Your Thoughts on Wildstar's Revenue Model

[Korova]

XP boosts as micro transactions do effect the game in the open world. Say you meet the opposite faction member that is 5 levels higher than you, considering our FAQ says we will be rolling on a PvP server, that would effect things significantly through the levelling process.

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To spur the conversation, what do you speculate could be considered a hybrid from the companies perspective?​

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F2P + MT for additional content as well as P2P available?​

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Well, I hope by additional content that...again it's strictly limited to aesthetics and gadgets which give no advantage, what so ever. And as you mentioned in your next post, I think there will be a sub-farmville/micromanagement game in the background. This kind of content will be valuable monetarily as people can purchase artwork, furtniture, pets, paint, tapestries, garden materials, etc. All of this is acceptable.​

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However, I don't know of any other method to generate income for the game, assuming by hybrid they're going to use P2P/B2P/F2P in some combination, for the F2P scenario except via MTs - ethical or not. Except by user-created content which is sold to Carbine for a small fee and/or subscription time. If we look at what 'revenue' could be defined by, it's something which accumulates from a 'fair exchange' between profiteer A (Carbine) and lesser profiteer B (You/Us). So, what are these 'consumables' or resources which exchange between people? ​

We want to play their game or an 'equivalent' (whatever that might mean). They want our money or an equivalent. An equivalent might be our time or content we create. Whatever it is, it must translate into money. ​

I think the only question is really, now, assuming they go with any form of F2P, is if the MTs translate into ethical, non-advantageous consumables or if it will be a mix of boosts, power ups or items as well. ​

I know that I'm committed almost 100% to Wildstar, based on what we know about the game already. It has many transitional but familiar aspects which combine for what will almost certainly be a powerful experience. That said, we've only seen part of the game - it could be released with deformed or dead content like Diablo 3 was. Every interview and preview of the game seems positive, so I'll probably end up getting a collector's edition of the game when it is released.​

Really this only effects the first 2 days of the game. Power levelers will buy these to be "first to cap" and they won't we pvping because it takes away from power leveling.

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After that you have power levelers who will gank you because the mentality of someone who pushes that hard is often the same mentality that will happily gank lower people.

After the first week the first wave of players will be way above the 2nd wave and so on. There will always be people who will take advantage of this.

I think this is mostly true. XP boosts tend to be one of the less detrimental non-ethical MTs a game could have. However, it may be possible to gain efficient experience in world PvP scenarios - or have the devs stated otherwise? I'm honestly not quite sure what to think about experience from world PvP - at least, if it's a universal experience bar. Perhaps there are not only paths to level, but PvP prowess as well!
If XP boosts were in the game's MT store, I doubt it would greatly affect my desire to purchase the game. At the same time, I would be concerned that in the 'near' future they'd offer items and power-ups to breeze through content.
I just honestly can't see them doing something that would trivialize their 'elitist' baby's well being - their content. Err, I'm not sure what happened to the formatting in the post

 

[Rajax]

As another variation, what about in-game items for those who play hard/a lot that can be traded in for subscription time? I think it is EVE that does that? Correct me if I am wrong, I feel like they would pull some of the successful things from that game because it was fairly "hardcore" centric with its steep learning curve (never played but from what I have read previously).

 

[ToxicAsF]

As another variation, what about in-game items for those who play hard/a lot that can be traded in for subscription time? I think it is EVE that does that? Correct me if I am wrong, I feel like they would pull some of the successful things from that game because it was fairly "hardcore" centric with its steep learning curve (never played but from what I have read previously).

/coughIthinkIalreadymentionedthatcough

I believe (I could be wrong) that you can pay for game time for an X dollar amount out of game, gives you an in-game item and you can trade item on their market place for in-game currency. Thus, you can effectively TRADE Real Money for in-game currency, but instead of a second currency (such as gems in GW2), it's Plex, a 30 day "subcription" item.

 

[Rajax]

/coughIthinkIalreadymentionedthatcough

Oops sorry.

 

[TIG]

GW2 allowed you to level in world pvp. It was turned out to be slower than pve leveling because you couldn't reliably gain kills or xp since the battles went back and forth. Not only that the people who concentrated on pvp leveling rarely ventured into pve. The pve'ers who went into pvp didn't really do it to level, it was just a nice bonus.

In my eyes the boosts to xp are really not pay to win like weapons or armor can be. Not that I'm saying you can buy weapons or armor.

 

[ToxicAsF]

Oops sorry.

No, it's fine, expand upon it if you want

 

[Jiggyyo]

I saw some mentioning about EVE Plex system here, and I totally think that’s the way to go with MMO’s now. Mainly because if you work hard in the game, you dont need to pay real money to play it. Which is a good "reward system" in my opinion. It also allows everyone to play the game if they work hard enough (or if they strip for money, like i do in games)

EVE Plex works this way:

1.You can either pay a certain amount of money a month, which is:
30 days 14.95€/month (14.95€ total)
90 days 12.95€/month (38.85€ total)
180 days 11.95€/month (81.70€ total)
360 days 10.95€/month (131.40€ total)

2. Or you can buy Eve Plex, Plex is 30 days of game time in the form of an in-game item. You can buy them for real money from CCP, or you can buy it from other players using in-game money. You can buy Plex whenever you want, and you can just have it in your inventory until you really want to use it.
But Plex can also be used to buy, for example, services. One of these services are clothing, you then convert your Plex into AUR (1Plex=3500AUR). And you use AUR to buy clothing for your character.
1 Plex cost 19.95€ and you can buy them in packs of 1,2,6,12 or 28.

I don’t think anyone else mentioned how the Eve system works here, and I’m deeply sorry if someone did. I got my information from Eve onlines account management, and some of my own experience of Eve.

 

[ToxicAsF]

I don’t think anyone else mentioned how the Eve system works here, and I’m deeply sorry if someone did. I got my information from Eve onlines account management, and some of my own experience of Eve.

I mentioned it, but I definitely didn't know that there was a set monetary value for Plex -> AUR. That part makes it much more stable in terms of conversion, as I personally thought it was a player driven pricing.

 

[Korova]

I saw some mentioning about EVE Plex system here, and I totally think that’s the way to go with MMO’s now. Mainly because if you work hard in the game, you dont need to pay real money to play it. Which is a good "reward system" in my opinion. It also allows everyone to play the game if they work hard enough (or if they strip for money, like i do in games)

EVE Plex works this way:

1.You can either pay a certain amount of money a month, which is:
30 days 14.95€/month (14.95€ total)
90 days 12.95€/month (38.85€ total)
180 days 11.95€/month (81.70€ total)
360 days 10.95€/month (131.40€ total)

2. Or you can buy Eve Plex, Plex is 30 days of game time in the form of an in-game item. You can buy them for real money from CCP, or you can buy it from other players using in-game money. You can buy Plex whenever you want, and you can just have it in your inventory until you really want to use it.
But Plex can also be used to buy, for example, services. One of these services are clothing, you then convert your Plex into AUR (1Plex=3500AUR). And you use AUR to buy clothing for your character.
1 Plex cost 19.95€ and you can buy them in packs of 1,2,6,12 or 28.

I don’t think anyone else mentioned how the Eve system works here, and I’m deeply sorry if someone did. I got my information from Eve onlines account management, and some of my own experience of Eve.

Thanks for the elaboration - hopefully the formatting won't mess up again :> - I couldn't fix it on my last post.

This seems completely acceptable to me, as a whole. An alternate pay method like this gives no real advantage and is akin to players paying for the game when they want to or can play again. The only thing that would concern me is if you could use the alternate currency to pay for things such as bags, equipment, boosts and power ups. Possibly clothing, if they purposefully limit the armor options in the game to a point where there's only three or four sets you can access and everything else is a re-colour or re-skin.

I also have a small concern about this alternate currency being tradable in game - can you just trade this for items and gear from other players? That wouldn't be horrible, but if you could do this you could effectively buy your way to max level much quicker; but, then again, you'd still have to spend the time grinding out the game...so I don't think it would be extremely non-ethical, especially after a month. After about a month or two, most high guilds will be maxed out in level so it wouldn't matter to that wave of players.

EverQuest uses a similar system which I brought up briefly in the OT, but didn't state it. They have 'Kronos' which are gems which operate in exactly the same way...although I think they only thing they're used for directly is subscription time. I think the last time I checked Kronos was going for a quarter of a million plat - it's difficult to speculate, but Plex/Kronos in Wildstar would probably go for a few thousand MAX currency, and after three weeks or a month it'd be a few ten thousand.

I think this would help a few things about the equivalence exchange - the people who would be 'playing for free' would most likely be those pushing the edge of the game's PvE content - helping the developers design new, more difficult content for future patches and expansions. That's not a cure all but it would help.

 

[ToxicAsF]

Well, the most recent (and I believe relevant model of this) is the GW2 gold/gem currency. The Kronos system stated above was introduced waaaaaay after launch, and I believe the plex system wasn't a launch concept either.

GW2 launched with the gold/gem conversion, and when looking back you can see the entire trend. Low costs early on due to high value of in-game currency (no farming, not sure of all items, leveling, etc). You'll see all of the spikes from holidays, exploits, announcements, etc.

That will be the most current example of a dual currency system in a game, built around itself for launch. Again, that was a non-subscription model. Adding that to the mix is only going to complicate things. People bitched about the boosts and "omg P2Win", but you still had to earn the initial chunk for the boosts. You just didn't have to as long as another player. And really, in GW2 there was no benefit on a single player status after the first week (Oh no, you hit a zone before I did. Drats. You have more T6 mats than me. You're marginally stronger than me in WvW).

I'm excited to see a mix of cash shop and sub. I really hope they just implement it effectively. I could definitely see a dual currency system, conversions, and buying game time with said "cash" currency. And now that I think about it, even though the player base of GW2 has dropped significantly, the gem store is still making a large amount of money. I can see NCSoft pushing for this style of system in Wildstar, even though the playstyles are pretty different between the two.

 

[Rajax]

As far as the costs relevant to in game currency I saw one of the interviews/videos that the Dev received 99 gold 99 silver 99 copper so I am not sure exactly how much we will be able to carry at launch, or if the Dev's can only give themselves currency in that amount at a time. This could also just be a CBT1/2 limit as well, just thought I would toss that in.

 

[Fishsticks]

I agree that the "getting ahead" issue should be the main focus of this argument - but I would like to point out that in some cases an XP boost might actually be used for Good. e.g. a friend has taken some time off the game and wants to catch up in levels to his/her friends whom have been playing in his/her absence

(I realize there is a mentoring system to avoid this, I'm just giving an example)

 

[ToxicAsF]

I agree that the "getting ahead" issue should be the main focus of this argument - but I would like to point out that in some cases an XP boost might actually be used for Good. e.g. a friend has taken some time off the game and wants to catch up in levels to his/her friends whom have been playing in his/her absence

(I realize there is a mentoring system to avoid this, I'm just giving an example)

The general public of "anti anything" don't care about the benefits. I completely agree with you, but for the sake of argument I will have to play the role of ignorant, intolerable asshole.

In a game that is clearly being designed to be competitive on EVERY level of gameplay, any of these boosts will be detrimental to that competition. Any time you have a situation where one can be "better" (faster, stronger, higher item/money gains, etc.) for anything other than in-game effort, it will be classified as unfair. 100%, 50%, 25%, 1%. Doesn't matter. That 1% that you have because you paid a dollar will be "unfair" because I did not pay 1$.

And as much as I hate this argument, my value of 1$ is different than your value of 1$. The same is true about your 1 hour and my 1 hour. There will never be a perfect balance to counteract this. If it is in-game, you can be blue in the face and some asshole will argue it down to oblivion because they "feel cheated". It doesn't matter if they were or weren't, but they feel like they were. THAT is the part you can't fight.

 

[Korova]

Here is a post from a 'MrBushido2318' on the wildstar sub-reddit:

As a pro-subscription based player that see's the benefits of there being a way to free to play I think one avenue that hasn't been explored enough in MMOs is episodic content.





MMOs already have a tendency to put out new content frequently to keep its players active. In a subscription based game you pay $15/month and get full access to everything. What if instead of paying $15/month you paid $x cash for a micro-expansion. Instead of paying a subscription for a service that has content updates every couple of months, you simply pay for the content.
Not only that, but make it work like eve online where players can trade game-time for in-game currency. Except instead of trading game-time, you trade the micro-expansion. This allows people to have a completely free to play experience but at the cost of a time investment. Likewise those without much time to play can trade content for in-game currency to make up for their inability to grind materials etc. This would also help curb gold farming since most players would tend to use the legitimate in-game "cash for gold" system.
There can also be varying degrees of content for purchase. The smartest way to buy may be to buy things in bundles, however they could release battleground map packs for pvp or sell them individually. With similar things for raids and quest hubs etc.
So lets quickly go over things again. "Subscription" favouring players get the benefit of being able to pay in at regular intervals, every month or two there will be a new batch of content for them to buy. "Free to players" can hoard in game currency and trade for the content that they want. These don't have to be polar opposites either, perhaps you earn a ton of gold from a rare item and use it to pick up some new content. Or as a free to player decide they really want to play something straight away and can cash in for it up front.
Most importantly though, it gives carbine a regular source of income from "subscribers" that would buy content as it was released. But also allows them to get extra revenue from new players who missed 6 months of content and buy it all at the same time (perhaps at a discount!). However since you're paying for actual content, you don't feel like you're being ripped off (hey, buy this bag! only $10!) or being offered things you really have no interest in (all the cool kids have a flaming jockstrap!)

Something tells me this post is going to look messy and if so, I apologize.

Anyhow, I think the first issue addressed in the post is an idea which could be worked around. It gives players a way to avoid subscriptions, but contribute to the game *in some way* meaningfully - again, the first issue being micro-content purchases. I think when you have these kinds of updates, you'd have to filter out bug fix and UI updates opposed to actual large gameplay updates (like a new raid and attunement with a dynamic backstory). Maybe put these out about twice a month for $7.50. I wish I could really think of an example content update from another MMO...I think the one that comes 'closest' (although wouldn't meet the expectations of the current meta processes), would be that of World of Warcraft's 'Gates of Ahn'Qiraj'. At that point I was still relatively young and was far more casual so I didn't experience it, however it was about that time when I noticed a rush of players doing world content and PvP. I think an update along those lines - given modern expectations - would be worth half a pizza or a burger and fry.

Unfortunately we'll come across a point where there are no more Wildstar related IPs because of roll-overs and dissipation of innovation, but we have (at least) two good things going for us before we reach that point:
1). The Wildstar Universe - is literally based in a galaxy, not one world or with a set of one species' gods or villains, but a galaxy's evils and whims to explore and settle.
2). Quality of background games - with the paths being revealed as well as housing, this transitional aspect will add more and more ways *to play*.

Briefly however, on the last point about accruing in-game currency for play time/micro-content updates, I think that a vast majority of the sub groups in the population will be paying in some way for the game and I would think most who manage to completely play for free will be the ones pushing the level of content, assuming regular updates of prices.

With that said, what content would you expect to be a fair mix of quality and quantity to charge for on bi-weekly basis?

 

[Rajax]

Here is a post from a 'MrBushido2318' on the wildstar sub-reddit:



Something tells me this post is going to look messy and if so, I apologize.

Anyhow, I think the first issue addressed in the post is an idea which could be worked around. It gives players a way to avoid subscriptions, but contribute to the game *in some way* meaningfully - again, the first issue being micro-content purchases. I think when you have these kinds of updates, you'd have to filter out bug fix and UI updates opposed to actual large gameplay updates (like a new raid and attunement with a dynamic backstory). Maybe put these out about twice a month for $7.50. I wish I could really think of an example content update from another MMO...I think the one that comes 'closest' (although wouldn't meet the expectations of the current meta processes), would be that of World of Warcraft's 'Gates of Ahn'Qiraj'. At that point I was still relatively young and was far more casual so I didn't experience it, however it was about that time when I noticed a rush of players doing world content and PvP. I think an update along those lines - given modern expectations - would be worth half a pizza or a burger and fry.

Unfortunately we'll come across a point where there are no more Wildstar related IPs because of roll-overs and dissipation of innovation, but we have (at least) two good things going for us before we reach that point:
1). The Wildstar Universe - is literally based in a galaxy, not one world or with a set of one species' gods or villains, but a galaxy's evils and whims to explore and settle.
2). Quality of background games - with the paths being revealed as well as housing, this transitional aspect will add more and more ways *to play*.

Briefly however, on the last point about accruing in-game currency for play time/micro-content updates, I think that a vast majority of the sub groups in the population will be paying in some way for the game and I would think most who manage to completely play for free will be the ones pushing the level of content, assuming regular updates of prices.

With that said, what content would you expect to be a fair mix of quality and quantity to charge for on bi-monthly basis?

I feel like pushing content that quickly would devalue the quality of the content given out on a biweekly basis. I know how often other games push out content, but for the direction of WildStar it would be acceptable only if the quality standard was kept.

On a pricing note, this could be dangerous. You could do it two ways: judge the price by a standard of content (larger updates cost more); or a flat price for it.

I do like the idea of owning the content and being able to play that way, it does make it a bit more enticing...as long as the prices were in line and NOT outrageous nor an outrageous amount of them (10 battlegrounds $5 each, 10 raids $8 each, new zone $15) and all at the same time.

Would they still release a full on Expansion if they did it this way? I don't think they could do that quite effectively.

I had more to say but forgot as I was typing /facepalm

 

[Korova]

I feel like pushing content that quickly would devalue the quality of the content given out on a biweekly basis. I know how often other games push out content, but for the direction of WildStar it would be acceptable only if the quality standard was kept.

On a pricing note, this could be dangerous. You could do it two ways: judge the price by a standard of content (larger updates cost more); or a flat price for it.

I do like the idea of owning the content and being able to play that way, it does make it a bit more enticing...as long as the prices were in line and NOT outrageous nor an outrageous amount of them (10 battlegrounds $5 each, 10 raids $8 each, new zone $15) and all at the same time.

Would they still release a full on Expansion if they did it this way? I don't think they could do that quite effectively.

I had more to say but forgot as I was typing /facepalm

Excellent post, thanks for correcting me. I get carried away a bit sometimes and forget what I'm typing too!

Yeah you're right, the quality of the content should come as a priority. I would also be concerned if they were pushing content at such a rate at which it was evident they were re-skinning to get your $5 or whatever.

At the same time, I would expect them to release content - which would be targeted to the F2Pers - at about the same rate and fee as a subscriber is paying - give or take. But yeah I was asking what the lot of you thought would be an appropriate price for content releases like 'Gates of AQ' with modern expectations met and what should those updates contain? I understand that's relatively broad, but if you were in the shoes of a F2P dedicated customer, what would you expect in terms of quality, content and price?

Is there anything about the game you wish would or could be added in a micro-content purchase?

Can any of you provide a good example and bad example of micro content releases?

 

[Rajax]

Excellent post, thanks for correcting me. I get carried away a bit sometimes and forget what I'm typing too!

Yeah you're right, the quality of the content should come as a priority. I would also be concerned if they were pushing content at such a rate at which it was evident they were re-skinning to get your $5 or whatever.

At the same time, I would expect them to release content - which would be targeted to the F2Pers - at about the same rate and fee as a subscriber is paying - give or take. But yeah I was asking what the lot of you thought would be an appropriate price for content releases like 'Gates of AQ' with modern expectations met and what should those updates contain? I understand that's relatively broad, but if you were in the shoes of a F2P dedicated customer, what would you expect in terms of quality, content and price?

Is there anything about the game you wish would or could be added in a micro-content purchase?

Can any of you provide a good example and bad example of micro content releases?

Thanks.

I think that maybe things they would have as major patch/content updates would be available as a download. The price I would think would have to be on par with how many months since last one (to keep their costs being paid, say 3 months since last patch or until the next, however you put it, would be $45). This would be like buying content in "Tiers" and yet still leave new expansions for when they wanted to put those out. BUT you would have to make that content release feel like almost an entire new game because that's basically the price you are paying for it. I know a lot of people on W* Central would cry tears of blood if that was the actual pricing and expectation, even if it's comparable to the sub of $15/mth it's the perception of what you're getting.

I do think owning the game at the end and coming and going as I please is great...but you also enable that part as well...coming and going as you please. In that sense it would feel like D3 or I guess GW2 (never played) but obviously this is a different and hopefully better game that would keep you full engaged.

Something I wouldn't want to pay for hmmm. Things that are MT's. I don't want to have a game I bought, then have to buy the crafting, then battleground packs, then raid packs, then each of the 3 different paths (say you pick 1 first char have to pay for other 3 individually) or anything that was bunched up like that. If a new "Tier" of something came out that had all of the new content available then I would consider that one a lot better over each piece individually - again as long as pricing was reasonably in line.

Hope there is a shred of sense somewhere in there lol.

 

[ToxicAsF]

One of the things that the des have stated is that they are aiming for content patches every 4-6 weeks. Not necessarily new raids, but they want to keep pumping out content. I don't expect them to require individual payments as a DLC fee for all of these. I could see a sub model for this reason alone, but as we have talked about before the price of that COULD be lower than 15 a month with a cash shop feature also introduced. I could also see maybe a sub model, every month new cash shop items appear, and sub members auto get these cash shop items as part of their sub or get them at a heavily reduced price. After hearing about the "mixed" payment models, I have a feeling this is a direction they could be planning to take.

 

[Korova]

One of the things that the devs have stated is that they are aiming for content patches every 4-6 weeks. Not necessarily new raids, but they want to keep pumping out content. I don't expect them to require individual payments as a DLC fee for all of these. I could see a sub model for this reason alone, but as we have talked about before the price of that COULD be lower than 15 a month with a cash shop feature also introduced. I could also see maybe a sub model, every month new cash shop items appear, and sub members auto get these cash shop items as part of their sub or get them at a heavily reduced price. After hearing about the "mixed" payment models, I have a feeling this is a direction they could be planning to take.

Yeah this seems like the nuts and bolts of what we'll have available at launch.

I also hadn't noticed that they'd planned to introduce content patches at such a frequent interval. If I /knew/ that the content was coming regularly, that Carbine would continue updating it's player base and communicating to us in a 24/7 type environment (or close) then I think a subscription of $20 or more would be reasonable. Yes, they have to remain competitive so let's take a look at major titles and what we know or expect from their pricing:

I haven't played any of these games in a very long time, so feel free to adjust my statements if they're incomplete/incorrect~

1). World of Warcraft - $14.99/mo with price reductions based on extra-monthly commitment. Despite its age, it has a thriving community of millions of players. Definately a hard competitor.
2). EQ/EQ2 - F2P with limiters/ 'Gold Membership' $14.99/mo. One of the oldest MMOs around but still caters to a dedicated swath of a few thousand. Neither will be hard competitors to Wildstar.
3). Project Titan - TBA. We really don't know, although due to the popularity of MTs, it would most likely include a cash shop of some kind. The interesting thing about this game is that it will 'partially-compete' with its sister
game, World of Warcraft. Especially if this game is released in the same lifespan of WoW, would it be a wise idea to charge a comparable subscription fee as the only means to play? A Hard competitor.
4). EverQuest 3 - TBA. However, based on the Planetside 2 trend, as well as most every other game from SOE, the game will probably be largely funded by a mix of ethical and non-ethical microtransactions. Based on current information, this game will most likely be a hard competitor to Wildstar.



There are a large group of other MMOs, some I'm familiar with (Neverwinter, Tera, GW2, Runescape*, Elder Scrolls Online, EVE, SWTOR, Marvel Heroes*) which I don't think will have much of the MMORPG market share when compared to the above titles and Wildstar. There may be others out there with a sizable following, so please feel free to list them for me and how you think they are competing.

In summary, despite what little we know about the actual release form of revenue, multiple options to play seem to be the best over-arching method for the game. As I've gathered information, it seems more and more likely we'll have this game by the end of the year, which will be at least a year ahead of Project Titan (most likely) and maybe a quarter or two before EQ3. Alongside WoW, those will probably be some of the biggest names in the genre and so, not knowing their exact model of revenue would encourage the best possible mix of all available, considerable options.

I'm so looking forward to this game >.< - I hope that I have everything in place to play by the time of release.

 

[ToxicAsF]

FFXIV will also have a sub model as well. I think it's either 12 or 15 a month.